DECNET for KS10 - TOPS-20 only?

[Arthur Krewat]

Hello all,

I have recently gotten a VAX running 7.2
under simh, and always have had a 7.02 TOPS-10 KS10
on simh.

With the newest version of SIMH, 331, I am about
to get networking compiled. I know the VAX should be easy,
and I'll certainly test it with a VAXstation (non-simulated).

My question is this: Is the KS10 capable of doing
DECNET with the DEUNA ? Does this require 7.03?

Besides being stupid for not RTFM (read: trailing-edge.com),
I am trying to start a conversion about getting DECNET
working on PDP-10 hardware provided by simh. If it doesn't
already exist, I'll pound it into submission even if I have
to hack TOPS-10 ...

For reasons totally nostalgic, if anyone says "use
TOPS-20", you kinda know what my answer will be :)

aak

[Christopher C. Stacy]

Run ITS.

:)

[Eric Smith]

Post by Arthur Krewat
My question is this: Is the KS10 capable of doing
DECNET with the DEUNA ? Does this require 7.03?

DEUNA (or DELUA) support is not a standard feature of any release of TOPS-10
or TOPS-20. The only DEC-supported Ethernet on a PDP-10 was the NIA20
on the KL10.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Eric Smith

Post by Arthur Krewat
My question is this: Is the KS10 capable of doing
DECNET with the DEUNA ? Does this require 7.03?

DEUNA (or DELUA) support is not a standard feature of any release of TOPS-10
or TOPS-20. The only DEC-supported Ethernet on a PDP-10 was the NIA20
on the KL10.

We put DECnet into the KS10 code and it was shipped with 7.03.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

[Eric Smith]

Post by Arthur Krewat
My question is this: Is the KS10 capable of doing
DECNET with the DEUNA ? Does this require 7.03?
DEUNA (or DELUA) support is not a standard feature of any release of
TOPS-10 or TOPS-20. The only DEC-supported Ethernet on a PDP-10 was the
NIA20 on the KL10.
We put DECnet into the KS10 code and it was shipped with 7.03.

Yes, but not using Ethernet.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Eric Smith

Post by Arthur Krewat
My question is this: Is the KS10 capable of doing
DECNET with the DEUNA ? Does this require 7.03?
DEUNA (or DELUA) support is not a standard feature of any release of
TOPS-10 or TOPS-20. The only DEC-supported Ethernet on a PDP-10 was the
NIA20 on the KL10.
We put DECnet into the KS10 code and it was shipped with 7.03.

Yes, but not using Ethernet.

My brain has definitely forgotten a lot. I could swear that the
wire from the KS was clamped onto the ethernet. I seemed to
remember thinking that it was so cool that a system could be
put on a net just like the electric power company crimps
a power line from the house to the grid. But again, hardware
was not my biz.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

[Mark Hittinger]

Post by j***@aol.com
My brain has definitely forgotten a lot. I could swear that the
wire from the KS was clamped onto the ethernet. I seemed to
remember thinking that it was so cool that a system could be
put on a net just like the electric power company crimps
a power line from the house to the grid. But again, hardware
was not my biz.

Could have been a dmc-11 or kmc-11 running sync decnet phase III end node.

It would have been logical for some work to go into the dmc-11 for ANF-10.

Later

Mark Hittinger
***@pu.net

[Arthur Krewat]

Post by Mark Hittinger
Could have been a dmc-11 or kmc-11 running sync decnet phase III end node.
It would have been logical for some work to go into the dmc-11 for ANF-10.

That's what I figured too, except that I had no idea what their names were
:) I remember the KS being only end-node, according to Barb.

Let's get some consensus here...

What would work with a KS10 using any version of TOPS-10 7.x to do DECNET
to ethernet? Both theoretical and real-world experiences are welcome :)

aak

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Arthur Krewat

Post by Mark Hittinger
Could have been a dmc-11 or kmc-11 running sync decnet phase III end node.
It would have been logical for some work to go into the dmc-11 for ANF-10.

That's what I figured too, except that I had no idea what their names were
:) I remember the KS being only end-node, according to Barb.

Oh, shit. Now I am confused. See my other post to Mark about end
node.

Post by Arthur Krewat
Let's get some consensus here...
What would work with a KS10 using any version of TOPS-10 7.x to do DECNET
to ethernet? Both theoretical and real-world experiences are welcome :)

I bet part of my confusion is I think of ethernet as software rather
than hardware. I've always equated ethernet with Phase IV DECnet
implementation.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Mark Hittinger

Post by j***@aol.com
My brain has definitely forgotten a lot. I could swear that the
wire from the KS was clamped onto the ethernet. I seemed to
remember thinking that it was so cool that a system could be
put on a net just like the electric power company crimps
a power line from the house to the grid. But again, hardware
was not my biz.

Could have been a dmc-11 or kmc-11 running sync decnet phase III end node.

Definitely not end node. Bill didn't have time to do end node
on the KS when he did Phase IV. End nodedness was on my list
of things left to develop on the -10 which, of course, was ignored
completely.

<snip>

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

[Arthur Krewat]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Mark Hittinger
Could have been a dmc-11 or kmc-11 running sync decnet phase III end node.

Definitely not end node. Bill didn't have time to do end node
on the KS when he did Phase IV. End nodedness was on my list
of things left to develop on the -10 which, of course, was ignored
completely.

Sorry Barb, I must have gotten it backwards - I thought end-node was all it
COULD do and routing was the thing it couldn't? But then, it makes more
sense to do routing-node first...

Can you tell my brain is mush and the only thing I remember is TOPS-10 and
MACRO-10 and anything else -10 from my teens?

aak

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Arthur Krewat

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by Mark Hittinger
Could have been a dmc-11 or kmc-11 running sync decnet phase III end node.

Definitely not end node. Bill didn't have time to do end node
on the KS when he did Phase IV. End nodedness was on my list
of things left to develop on the -10 which, of course, was ignored
completely.

Sorry Barb, I must have gotten it backwards -

Oh, don't be sorry; it's more likely I'd have it wrong. :-)

Post by Arthur Krewat
..I thought end-node was all it
COULD do and routing was the thing it couldn't? But then, it makes more
sense to do routing-node first...

I'm not sure why routing was even in the specs but then hindsight
is much better than seeing the sky when you're up to your butt
in alligators.

Post by Arthur Krewat
Can you tell my brain is mush and the only thing I remember is TOPS-10 and
MACRO-10 and anything else -10 from my teens?

I don't get the impression that your brain is mushed at all :-).

It's too bad you didn't get to do some serious -10 stuff in your
adulthood.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

[Arthur Krewat]

Post by j***@aol.com
I'm not sure why routing was even in the specs but then hindsight
is much better than seeing the sky when you're up to your butt
in alligators.

That got a laugh... Maybe someone thought a routing KS10 was usefull for
something, like just being a router?

Post by j***@aol.com
It's too bad you didn't get to do some serious -10 stuff in your
adulthood.

Oh, I got serious stuff done, but I was only 17, out of high school,
working as a consultant. I only worked at LIRICS from '83 to '84 but lurked
on modems for the next 4-5 years, taking care of my MAIL software I had
left at my high school, and constantly improving it. I was at least 24 when
the modems went away. I don't remember which came first, the great turn-off
or the modems going away. When I found they had thrown the KS10's out or
some other foolish thing like calling a scrap dealer, I fumed for a month.

I feel 17 again, I have a KS10 and a VAX running here in my basement,
without all the extra BTUs I could have used to heat the house in the
winter :)

DECNET is only going to make that better, and now that I have a basis for
the DMP for simh, it's even better still...

aak

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Arthur Krewat

Post by j***@aol.com
I'm not sure why routing was even in the specs but then hindsight
is much better than seeing the sky when you're up to your butt
in alligators.

That got a laugh... Maybe someone thought a routing KS10 was usefull for
something, like just being a router?

Nah, I was thinking about having any PDP-10 do routing. At that time
there was a lot of LAN work and VAXelns (I think that's the
correct word) were doing a pretty good job as dedicated routers
if you kept users off these teensy machines. -20s couldn't
do real routing anyway (they only knew MCB). A good side
effect of implementing ethernet was that awful system (I'm
speaking with my packaging hat on) could have gone away.

Post by Arthur Krewat

Post by j***@aol.com
It's too bad you didn't get to do some serious -10 stuff in your
adulthood.

Oh, I got serious stuff done, but I was only 17, out of high school,
working as a consultant. I only worked at LIRICS from '83 to '84 but lurked
on modems for the next 4-5 years, taking care of my MAIL software I had
left at my high school, and constantly improving it. I was at least 24 when
the modems went away. I don't remember which came first, the great turn-off
or the modems going away. When I found they had thrown the KS10's out or
some other foolish thing like calling a scrap dealer, I fumed for a month.

...

Yup. I understand.

Post by Arthur Krewat
I feel 17 again, I have a KS10 and a VAX running here in my basement,
without all the extra BTUs I could have used to heat the house in the
winter :)

Kewl. I hope you take time out and have some fun.

Post by Arthur Krewat
DECNET is only going to make that better, and now that I have a basis for
the DMP for simh, it's even better still...

It sounds like you got useful info in this <ahem>fight.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

[Mark Hittinger]

Post by j***@aol.com
Definitely not end node. Bill didn't have time to do end node
on the KS when he did Phase IV. End nodedness was on my list
of things left to develop on the -10 which, of course, was ignored
completely.

I think this is backwards. The end node used less resources because it didn't
have to maintain the routing.

Phase IV did bring ethernet and extra routing stuff - I am not sure that the
KS-10 could do this because of memory limitations. I remember something about
decnet being moved out of section 0 because of the memory issue.

So I'm pretty sure its phase III, end node, compiled into section 0, and
using the dmc-11 interface.

I'd bet an attempt to add DEUNA support into 7.03 would tickle the section 0
memory constraints. Its still possible, but we'd have to prune some stuff.

Someone WAS apparently trying this in 7.04 era, i.e.
comdev.mac:IFN M.KS10,<EXTERN UNASER> ;FORCE LOADING OF DEUNA DEVICE SERVICE
comdev.mac:IFN FTKS10,<UNAMDT::MDENET> ;DEUNA

Anybody got UNASER.MAC? :-)

Alternatively we could code a dmc-11 emulator device for simh. Next come up
with a small RSX-11 route node running in a simh PDP-11 that has ethernet and
a dmc-11. Assuming nobody tries to stop us we'd then connect the simh PDP-11
dmc-11 to the simh KS-10 dmc-11. :-)

Later

Mark Hittinger
***@pu.net

[Mark Crispin]

Post by Mark Hittinger
Phase IV did bring ethernet and extra routing stuff - I am not sure that the
KS-10 could do this because of memory limitations. I remember something about
decnet being moved out of section 0 because of the memory issue.
So I'm pretty sure its phase III, end node, compiled into section 0, and
using the dmc-11 interface.

I did Phase IV DECnet support for the KS in TOPS-20 4.2 (what? You never
heard of TOPS-20 4.2?).

It was a major squeeze to get it to build in a single section, and that
was just using the KMC11. I also had to reduce the size of the KMC11
packets.

The router support was there, and if a DEUNA driver was written it could
use it; but memory was seriously limited by this.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

[Arthur Krewat]

Post by Mark Hittinger
Alternatively we could code a dmc-11 emulator device for simh. Next
come up with a small RSX-11 route node running in a simh PDP-11 that
has ethernet and a dmc-11. Assuming nobody tries to stop us we'd then
connect the simh PDP-11 dmc-11 to the simh KS-10 dmc-11. :-)

This is actually what I was thinking of doing. Who would stop us?

I have the technical and maintenance manuals for the DMC11 on microfiche.
Anyone have electronic copies?

Is there ANY chance of getting DECNET iii working with DECNET iv (on VMS)?
I'm not a DECNET nut, have configured it, used it, debugged it, but have
no idea about cross-version compatibility.

aak

[Mark Hittinger]

Post by Arthur Krewat
This is actually what I was thinking of doing. Who would stop us?

Someone we respect might laugh :-)

Post by Arthur Krewat
I have the technical and maintenance manuals for the DMC11 on microfiche.
Anyone have electronic copies?

The 2.11BSD dmc.c driver is downloadable from the net and we have the
dncdmc.p11 module from the DN8x code from the 7.04 tape. These might be
better than the manuals.

Post by Arthur Krewat
Is there ANY chance of getting DECNET iii working with DECNET iv (on VMS)?
I'm not a DECNET nut, have configured it, used it, debugged it, but have
no idea about cross-version compatibility.

I don't recall any problems with this and there should not be a compatibility
problem doing this. DEC did put a lot of effort into this area. But
performance is another matter! :-)

Later

Mark Hittinger
***@pu.net

[Johnny Eriksson]

Post by Mark Hittinger
I'd bet an attempt to add DEUNA support into 7.03 would tickle the section 0
memory constraints. Its still possible, but we'd have to prune some stuff.
Someone WAS apparently trying this in 7.04 era, i.e.
comdev.mac:IFN M.KS10,<EXTERN UNASER> ;FORCE LOADING OF DEUNA DEVICE SERVICE
comdev.mac:IFN FTKS10,<UNAMDT::MDENET> ;DEUNA
Anybody got UNASER.MAC? :-)

Only by name. :-(

I tried to follow up on this quite some time ago, and got some hints
that KBY (Kimo B. Yap?) had made some efforts to really make this happen,
but it turned up nothing. I then set out to write one of my own, but
this was only to support a (new) IP stack for tops-10, so it is not in
any way close to what the other one would have been in terms of interface.

In retrospect, this was stupid.

Anyhow, I have code that can talk to a DEUNA/DELUA over the UNIBUS, and
it works with both the real thing (even if in my case the real thing is
in storage, and has been for quite some time) and simh/ks10 with ether-
net support. I can also confirm that DECnet (even without ethernet
support) is a memory hog, and getting DECnet/ethernet up on a single
section machine might require some tweaking.

I have, however added emulation of the KMC/DUP combo to simh, and am
currently running a two-node ANF-10 network between two different
emulators. Works just fine.

.net/a/t
[ANF10 network: connected to TOPSY(1), located at TOPSY(1), 2 nodes]
Node TOPSY (1) 7
Node NADJA (7) 1

This works equally fine if you run DECnet over the simulated sync lines.

Post by Mark Hittinger
Later
Mark Hittinger

--Johnny

[Arthur Krewat]

Post by Johnny Eriksson
I have, however added emulation of the KMC/DUP combo to simh, and am
currently running a two-node ANF-10 network between two different
emulators. Works just fine.

Care to share? :)

Post by Johnny Eriksson
.net/a/t
[ANF10 network: connected to TOPSY(1), located at TOPSY(1), 2 nodes]
Node TOPSY (1) 7
Node NADJA (7) 1
This works equally fine if you run DECnet over the simulated sync lines.

cool!

aak

[Johnny Eriksson]

Post by Arthur Krewat

Post by Johnny Eriksson
I have, however added emulation of the KMC/DUP combo to simh, and am
currently running a two-node ANF-10 network between two different
emulators. Works just fine.

Care to share? :)

ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd.tar

As the name implies, this is for an older version of simh, but it still
works for me... Someday when I get some free time I plan to upgrade this
to the latest and greatest version. Then again, someone might just beat
me to it now...

Post by Arthur Krewat
aak

--Johnny

[Arthur Krewat]

Post by Johnny Eriksson
ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd.tar

Slick!

Post by Johnny Eriksson
As the name implies, this is for an older version of simh, but it still
works for me... Someday when I get some free time I plan to upgrade this
to the latest and greatest version. Then again, someone might just beat
me to it now...

I got the -11 DZ11 (thanks Thord) working in simh (27?) for the KS10 and
gave it back to Bob, so I'm obviously going to take a stab at getting your
stuff into simhv331 - with a sledgehammer if need be. In my dusty memory, I
think something internally was changed with devices in simh 3, so it'll be
good to compare pre-v3 DZ11 with post v3.

I like the UDP connection, but in a way, I'd rather TCP because of the end-
to-end consistency. With UDP you run the risk of losing stuff especially if
the receiver is slow - but I'll get what you have working first, then futz
with it. :)

Thanks so much!

aak

[Johnny Eriksson]

Post by Arthur Krewat
I like the UDP connection, but in a way, I'd rather TCP because of the end-
to-end consistency. With UDP you run the risk of losing stuff especially if
the receiver is slow - but I'll get what you have working first, then futz
with it. :)

I was thinking along that line myself, but doing the active TCP open
in a way that fits cleanly into the way simh does things was looking
very much like a big stumbling block. Also, given that the UDP is
normally done locally over the loopback interface, packet loss at that
stage should be close to nil.

I forgot to say that the TCP helper code is at .../stuk2.c, you might
want to look at it. Or not.

Post by Arthur Krewat
Thanks so much!

Be my guest.

Post by Arthur Krewat
aak

-Johnny

[Arthur Krewat]

Post by Johnny Eriksson

Post by Arthur Krewat
I like the UDP connection, but in a way, I'd rather TCP because of
the end- to-end consistency. With UDP you run the risk of losing
stuff especially if the receiver is slow - but I'll get what you have
working first, then futz with it. :)

I was thinking along that line myself, but doing the active TCP open
in a way that fits cleanly into the way simh does things was looking
very much like a big stumbling block. Also, given that the UDP is
normally done locally over the loopback interface, packet loss at that
stage should be close to nil.

...

True... all true. Is it possible to open the connection at carrier-detect,
DSR, or something akin to that? But yeah, UDP makes a LOT more sense when
you consider it's stateless.

Post by Johnny Eriksson
I forgot to say that the TCP helper code is at .../stuk2.c, you might
want to look at it. Or not.

Oh, I already peaked around a bit - I plan to take a long hard look at that
IP code! Even if FTP was the only thing I used...

aak

[Bob Supnik]

Very cool!

Anything that works through standard Berkeley sockets interfaces can
typically be ported to Windows with minimal effort - some routine
names and/or FCTL parameters may have to be tweaked.

I'll take a look at the code as well.

/Bob

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:18:31 +0000 (UTC), Johnny Eriksson

Post by Johnny Eriksson

Post by Arthur Krewat

Post by Johnny Eriksson
I have, however added emulation of the KMC/DUP combo to simh, and am
currently running a two-node ANF-10 network between two different
emulators. Works just fine.

Care to share? :)

ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/v29upd.tar
As the name implies, this is for an older version of simh, but it still
works for me... Someday when I get some free time I plan to upgrade this
to the latest and greatest version. Then again, someone might just beat
me to it now...

Post by Arthur Krewat
aak

--Johnny

...

[Mark Hittinger]

Post by Johnny Eriksson
I have, however added emulation of the KMC/DUP combo to simh, and am
currently running a two-node ANF-10 network between two different
emulators. Works just fine.

Awesome!

How do you interface the two emulators? Via a pipe (or named pipe) mechanism
or SYSV msgsnd/msgrcv?

I know Bob's concern is that the mechanism be VERY portable (i.e., work on
Windows :-) :-) ).

Later

Mark Hittinger
***@pu.net

[Johnny Eriksson]

Post by Mark Hittinger

Post by Johnny Eriksson
I have, however added emulation of the KMC/DUP combo to simh, and am
currently running a two-node ANF-10 network between two different
emulators. Works just fine.

Awesome!
How do you interface the two emulators? Via a pipe (or named pipe) mechanism
or SYSV msgsnd/msgrcv?

The primary method is to send complete ddcmp frames in udp datagrams,
either to another port on the same host, or to some other host. I also
have a freestanding application that can run this over an encrypted
tunnel, if one wants to transit a network and/or wants to reach out
thru a nat or something.

Given the hardware, it should be possible to have a helper that talks to
a sync/async port, and on to a real machine.

Post by Mark Hittinger
I know Bob's concern is that the mechanism be VERY portable (i.e., work on
Windows :-) :-) ).

Yup. What you need here is the ability to send and receive udp datagrams,
and that should be possible on most platforms.

Post by Mark Hittinger
Later
Mark Hittinger

--Johnny

[j***@aol.com]

Post by Mark Hittinger

Post by j***@aol.com
Definitely not end node. Bill didn't have time to do end node
on the KS when he did Phase IV. End nodedness was on my list
of things left to develop on the -10 which, of course, was ignored
completely.

I think this is backwards. The end node used less resources because it didn't
have to maintain the routing.

Mimimal system resources wasn't the problem. Bill just didn't have
time to make end node work on the KS. I can't recall what coding
had to be done.

Post by Mark Hittinger
Phase IV did bring ethernet and extra routing stuff - I am not sure that the
KS-10 could do this because of memory limitations. I remember something about
decnet being moved out of section 0 because of the memory issue.

On the KL. The KL also had to have oodles of device drivers and
stuff hanging off it. The KS didn't have to have memory hog of
the RAn0 shit in it, nor did it have to have more than one magtape
device driver, nor did it have to deal with -20F and the address
space taken up by dozens of disks wasn't a requirement.

Post by Mark Hittinger
So I'm pretty sure its phase III, end node, compiled into section 0, and
using the dmc-11 interface.

I KNOW I certified Phase IV DECnet on both the KS and the KL.

Post by Mark Hittinger
I'd bet an attempt to add DEUNA support into 7.03 would tickle the section 0
memory constraints. Its still possible, but we'd have to prune some stuff.

<shrug> Put the magtape stuff into user mode. The only reason
you need the magtape code these days is to fiddle with downloading
bits and boot. If I could have figured out a way to dump that
boot magtape, I would have but there just wasn't any justification
to change the cold start device from being the magtape.


Magtapes were devices from hell, both the drives and the media.
We just didn't have another option during that timeframe. If
the -10 had continued being developed, we would have gone to
CD in a picosecond without any arguments from anybody (other
than those who wanted to keep the -10s in mothballs).

Post by Mark Hittinger
Someone WAS apparently trying this in 7.04 era, i.e.
comdev.mac:IFN M.KS10,<EXTERN UNASER> ;FORCE LOADING OF DEUNA DEVICE SERVICE
comdev.mac:IFN FTKS10,<UNAMDT::MDENET> ;DEUNA
Anybody got UNASER.MAC? :-)
Alternatively we could code a dmc-11 emulator device for simh. Next come up
with a small RSX-11 route node running in a simh PDP-11 that has ethernet and
a dmc-11. Assuming nobody tries to stop us we'd then connect the simh PDP-11
dmc-11 to the simh KS-10 dmc-11. :-)

Why bother with DECnet? Do it with ANF-10. ANF-10 was doing
Phase IV stuff (IIRC, not all of it) way before DECnet "approved"
the Phase III specs.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.